Spend Destiny to flip a card?
Should we introduce a rule that lets you flip a card from Reversed to Face Up for 100 Destiny?
hmm.. I am really mixed on this. I can see a benefit because it would take some serious destiny out of play but at the same time it feels a little manipulative.
I'd like to hear what others think.
i am in favor of this..its dangerous unless two high destiny groups collaborate.....likely whomever flips it wont be able to "win" it if they want it or keep from winning it when dont want it.
If you win it or trade for it, you can spend 100 to flip it.
oh, after the fact..thats a big negative from me. I will *not* support this in anyway
One thing it would do is open up the existing cards. If I planned on spending 100 to flip a Reversed, then I won't have nearly as much left to bid on the other Face Ups, and I'd be more likely to get more severe Reversed cards. It would also greatly alter the deal-making dynamic.
I think allowing this could be a game-changer for the low-Destiny clans. If you knew that one or more high-Destiny clans were interested in doing this, then you could bid really low on a Reversed card and still avoid it, rather than having to bid high to avoid it.
I think there could be 2 things here:
Someone could spend a *very* high amount of destiny to flip a card after they've won it - something like 100 which Gordon suggested
Collectively as a group, we could contribute destiny (a smaller amount than the previous bullet) to flip a card before it is bid on. Something like 60 destiny which could come from any number of clans in any amount, individually. It would still be bid on normally after it is flipped.
Interesting how the two big destiny clans are in favor of this....it would take me 4 turns to save up 100 with no actions, protecting myself from negatives and winning no positives.
This is no go for me...I mean seriously..no...i can't stress this enough
Varock's 2nd suggestion i could get behind. Anything after the fact....I dont want to play it...
To be clear - I'm not saying I'm in favor of either. Just throwing out suggestions. I personally don't think I'd ever do that first bullet, even if it was an available option.
I do like the 2nd bullet and could make for some interesting negotiations/discussions around the destiny game.
I understand your instinctive resistance to this idea, but if you think it through, I think you'll see that it's a win/win. If I take a negative off the board and make it positive, then I gain by getting a good positive card. You win by not getting a bad negative card, and by me losing 100 Destiny, which will leave more good stuff for you and less for me. It will also make us more equal when it comes to making deals. Adding more positive cards to the game and decreasing negative cards helps everyone.
For instance, if we agreed to make this a rule starting in the Summer, then instead of my deal offer of Sage Reversed, the Prince Reversed, Bannerbearer Reversed, The Wolf, Nolomar, Queen of Swords and Cornucopia, maybe I just get The Sage Reversed, Bannerbearer Reversed, The Wolf, and Cornucopia. That would leave a lot more for other clans. It would also eat up almost all of my saved up Destiny.
Thoughts?
Bueller? Bueller?
I am on the fence about this. I would like to hear what TJ and Jason have to say as well. I am more in favor of a prebid flip by the group is a deal can be made. Hmm..
we used to have a destiny buy out on cards to negate them, following this logic we could have a destiny amount to flip the card.
As I said, i have mixed feelings about this.
Processing this for a bit…
Referencing Matt's previous post, maybe it costs less (60?) to flip before it's resolved, and 100 after it's resolved.
I guess I really don’t see a true negative to this. Basically someone pays 100 to get the card they want. If they paid 100 for a positive card they’d probably get it too. It would probably take them out of the bidding for the other cards. I do think they would have to let everyone know before bidding. Of course they would only need to bid a 0 since it is a negative card. I’m just thinking out loud.
Why I do agree with Gorden. That This isnt a bad thing for other people. An Having a way to spend alot of destiny is a good thing. I dont know if this is it.
This would make high density even more powerful. This will let high density clan get opportunity that others dont have.
None of this am I opposed too this is just my thoughts. I personally wouldn't mind people sending destiny like this because I could get more chances at other things.
Do we have a final decision on being able to spend Destiny after you get an item to flip it from Reversed to Face Up?
I tend lean toward letting this happen-
73 destiny to flip before bidding
101 destiny to flip afterwards
.
Sense there is a bit of hesitancy from the group, this will not be official until everyone signs off on here or until we vote on Sunday night.
i dont like any scenario that allows flipping after, it favors bigger clans far far to much. as i stated before , it would take me 4 turns of getting nothing and avoiding negatives to come close to being able to do that. maybe 3.
So, with the flip rule.....the banner bearer for example.
if its positive...every bids, and likely bids heaviliy.
if its negative, and you can flip....it can only be contested by someone who can afford to flip it (1 or 2 clans) or someone willing to take a huge negative
Correct. It's a Destiny sink for people with a lot of Destiny, whether it's positive or negative (flippable). If it's not flippable, it's likely to go to a clan with less Destiny, unless a deal is made somehow.
Then it should be treated as such..in the other thread where you are "sacrificing" by taking two terrible negatives and everyone else taking a minor negative, but you are willing to take that huge sacrifice by being rewarded with two positives. When in actuality, you could put be flipping one or both with minimal costs besides the flip costs...4 positives for you (yay team) (if you can afford it..dunno, i know i could never EVER EVER EVER afford it)
We can add positives to it too, if you want. I was just starting with negatives, and the positives I was willing to take. One major positive and one lower positive. Of course I'd prefer to have King of Cups, Nolomar, the Wolf, etc. If flipping isn't possible, then I'll be more aggressive in going for more majors, and avoiding bad negatives.
You'd think if you were planning on flipping something if that rule is approved, you'd be willing to take the negatives without a positive... just to guarantee you get it.
but again its a double edge sword...who wants banner bearer, or would take it voluntarily unless they plan on flipping it.
In my mind, spending 101 destiny to flip a card that you’ve voluntarily taken is still an extremely big expense. It probably means that clan is taking an extra couple of negative cards that they could’ve otherwise avoided because they can no longer afford to avoid them. I’m personally totally ok with that rule simply to allow other people to sink destiny (I don’t think I’d ever do it).
On the pre-bid flip, I think 73 is too high. Or at least too high in some cases. Maybe it should be higher for named cards than deuce cards, for example.
I like the idea of each card having it's destiny amount to flip it.
I assume that a pre destiny flip might have multiple people paying destiny to flip it. This gives the players a chance to "trade" destiny.
Im all about pre-flipping costs especially if i can pay destiny to raise the cost.
Like if varock and merric agree to flip banner bearer and both pay 35/36 And i can dump 20 into it to raise their costs. so they have to expend more.
Maybe as a compromise between pre and post flilp. Right before each auction, you are given the option of paying to flip.....
Also, can you pay to flip positive to negative?
Yes, I would think flipping could go either way
Would the pre-bid destiny payment to flip be public or private? i.e. Would everyone just generally know that enough destiny has been spent to flip it or would everyone know exactly how much destiny each clan spent to flip it?
"Maybe as a compromise between pre and post flilp. Right before each auction, you are given the option of paying to flip..... "
I don't see that as a compromise. That's just a pre-bid flip.
I can't envision a scenario where anyone would want to flip positive to negative, but that should definitely be possible.
No actually its not the same thing, i am assuming the proposal is before destiny game starts you pay to flip. Which means people can base their bidding on that said action.
but if you dont flip until the card is up, then you can be more strategic about it
Strategically, it's just about the same thing, and fundamentally different from a post-bid flip.
Honestly, again i highly object ..for more than one reason...A) Some people would likely never be able to do it....B) Introducing this when folks likely already have a big bank and can just slide right into something, unless someone who can't afford to flip it eats the negative. Being able to flip a card should be doable, but mostly straight across the board even. Maybe in the form of a random minor destiny card that is winnable or something other than doing it after the fact....
Not everyone can do shipping and it would take several turns for them to get a ship. Maybe we should do away with shipping?
There will always be inequities. Some people have better characters.
"There will always be inequities. Some people have better characters." I have one crazy character that could be taken away with a single die roll, the rest of my guys are inline with everyone elses.
"Not everyone can do shipping and it would take several turns for them to get a ship. Maybe we should do away with shipping?"
Sure, i've only been able to utilize it once fully, other time not so much....and the one time i used it for shipping likely gave me less income than any clan that is sizeable, gets in fees.
And you and Timador can both do shipping.
Acoma and Varock can't do shipping, and it would take them thousands of pennies and several turns to get ships. It's unfortunate that we didn't have good shipping rules in place from the beginning, but that's just part of our game. Acoma probably hasn't completed rules yet for his inventions. When new things are introduced, sometimes it takes time to flesh them out.
The point is, no one is good at everything. There will be strengths and weaknesses. We shouldn't judge a rule by who can or can't take advantage of it, we should judge it by whether we think it's a good rule to have.
Let's table the idea of flipping Destiny cards for now.
Although I do not agree with Jeff's arguments there is no reason to add another layer at this point to the Destiny Game. The Destiny Game is not broken, this idea was just adding to it. I am pretty neutral to the idea. It is difficult to tell what the full impacts would be and I would like to have everyone on board.
Do we want to implement the ability to flip it before the bid? There doesn't seem to be much disagreement about that.