Training in Talents
Like Jeff said, we need to come up with a list of self-trainable talents. Or, it might be easier to say that all talents are self-trainable, but without a trainer you're at disadvantage. If this were the case, then we'd just need to set target rolls. Maybe a 9 for offensive combat talents, 8 for defensive talents and 7 for non-combat talents. If a talent can be used for more than one of these categories, then it would use the toughest target number. I also think that if you have a trainer, then that trainer needs to spend the same number of days as the trainee (unlike skills, which only require 50%).
Insta-train? only 25xps? im fine..but thats way to easy.
this isnt what i posted that you seemed to like
Target numbers are fairly high, and requires a trainer not to have disadvantage, assuming you can find a trainer with that particular talent. Can you re-post what you said?
I’d say make talents require a trainer.
Set every talent to have a target #. Easier ones set at 7, hardest 9 or 10.
Ten days per roll, no advantage.
Using one of either of these.
You can spend 20 or 30 days training instead…20 days gets you 2d10 to make the roll, 30 days 3d10.
OR
10 days, roll, if you miss, you can continue to train (without trainer) and the target drops by 1. Roll, if you miss, rinse and repeat. So even the hardest talent could likely be gain in one turn (7 rolls)…unless you just roll BADLY BADLY BADLY.
So the main differences are that I said you're at disadvantage if you don't have a trainer, and you said that you have to have a trainer but you don't get advantage, with the option that you can continue to roll without a trainer (with an easier target number) if you fail the first time. Do we go through the list and assign target numbers for each talent, or do we use the categories that I suggested?
A few thoughts from me:
What defines a trainer? I think any character who currently has the talent should be able to train another character (plus some NPCs as trainers also). Both characters have to spend time on the training.
I like the simple bucketing that Gordon mentioned, but I think there should be a few "exception" talents that are especially powerful and require a 10 roll. Things like Savvy and Swashbuckler come to mind.
I like 10 days per roll (for both the trainer and trainee). I don't think the target number should get easier if you fail a roll. Talents should be hard to earn.
I think the rolls should almost always be straight up (no advantage) but there should be some destiny cards and some especially-skilled trainers which could provide advantage
I think target #'s should continue to decrease....sort of like learning something new at college.
I think that you should have to have a trainer. But your settlement education rating should play into training for talent. I dont know what that would look like but if your settlement has good schooling you have better training equipment in my mind lower the target number of a DC
I like the idea of Education affecting training.
Matt proposed that if you have an 8 or higher in Education then you get advantage on your training and research rolls. I like that. I like the rest of Matt's proposals above. I think target #'s shouldn't decrease, but if we decide we want them to, they shouldn't decrease until the next turn. If you're spending multiple turns to learn a talent, I'm ok with the target decreasing on subsequent turns.
Okay so...
Spend xx experience, every 10 days and beat a target (7 to 10 pending on the talent with nothing added to the roll) (how many experience? 25)
Rolls are made at disadvantage, unless you have a trainer, then normal
Educations >= 8 give you an advantage roll.
What is the bucketing you guys were talking about?
and do you just pay one flat experience at the beginning and you can make training rolls every 10 days till you give up or gain it? or is it experience every roll.
so training a talent is automatic at the expenditure of 25 experience?
Im good with all of this other than determining the roll level for talents.
What do you mean "Automatic"?
I don't think you can learn a talent with Experience points. You need a trainer.
Here would be my full proposal for training talents:
Normal experience rolls cannot be used to learn talents. Talents have to be intentionally trained separately as they are not naturally learned from doing things in the world.
Some talents can be self-learned while others require a trainer. Maybe Non-Combat = self-learned and Combat = require trainer?
You earn 1 talent roll for every 10 days trained. 1 talent roll = 1 disadvantaged roll (2 dice and take lowest) toward learning a talent. Both trainer and trainee have to use days (maybe less for trainer?).
Talent rolls can be made as soon as the training is complete. For example, if I train a talent for 30 days then go on a mission in that same turn, I can make my 3 talent rolls before the mission begins.
Some external factors can provide advantage - trainers, high Education rating, and destiny cards. These are stackable so, for example, a Trainer + High Education = roll 2 dice and take highest.
Trainers would include people who already know the talent + some NPCs.
Target would be between 7 and 10 generally, with a 7 target for non-combat talents, 8 target for defensive combat talents, 9 target for offensive combat talents, and 10 target for a select few highly impactful talents.
Target # to learn a talent doesn't change over time. However, there could be some trainers or universities, etc. in the game which lower the target because they are very skilled at training.
Oops didn't see the other replies while I was typing so I may have duplicated some things Gordon listed earlier
I think we're pretty close. I think training for a talent at disadvantage almost guarantees you'll never get it.
I think if baseline is disadvantage it significantly encourages you to get a trainer or else you're going to spend a lot of time learning it
If baseline was a single dice then 7-target talent is learned in ~3 rolls or 30 days, on average
I think this is way too low, personally.
I was thinking you couldn't roll at all without a trainer, and that trainer wouldn't give you advantage. If you can roll without a trainer, then maybe we need to raise the minimum to an 8. Or just assign disadvantage when you don't have a trainer. :)
Put a column on the sheet saying Trainer Required Y/N.
I actually like your approach better. All talents require a trainer and then the roll is straight up.
This also puts some cost into consideration besides man-days, as trainers will likely charge pennies to train.
That, or you're taking a clansman away from other pursuits to train someone.
Assuming you've got someone in your clan with the desired talent.
Do Settlement ratings apply to anyone while they're in your settlement? Or only to the people who live there permanently?
For example, if you wanted my clansman to train your clansman in a talent and I have a +8 Education and the training happened at my settlement, would your clansman get the advantage roll?
I think so. I kinda feel like that would be an internal feature of your settlement. Maybe you've developed an educational system that has to be followed in order to get the right results. The trainee is just following the trainer's directions.
Next question: Are all talents trainable? Can you learn Night Vision, or is that a genetic trait of the individual?
And should Poison Attack even be a talent? If it is, I think it's a prime candidate to have out-of-combat functionality. It's basically Herblore but focusing on poisons, right?
Automatic as in you dont need to spend 10 days.
I don't think you should be able to learn a talent using XP's.
Thats going to make folks with highly desirable talents a hot commodity.
Maybe make a list of talents that can be learned without a trainer....(like sprinter) and some that require a trainer. otherwise if you clan doesnt have a bunch of talents, you arent going to be learning anything...and the new arcane talents we are trying to adopt will be unlearnable.
As has been mentioned before, we need to decide if all talents require trainers or not. If they do, then the clans might need to cooperate. I don't have an answer for the talents we've created since the game started. Maybe some people spontaneously manifest a new talent at random. Maybe during their Sunsign month?
That would be cool. Maybe everyone rolls a d10 in their Sunsign month. If they roll a 10, they acquire a new talent.
I opened a new thread in Table Top Rules about our previous discussion on combining Backstab and Opportunity Attack.
So have we decided for sure you can learn talents via xp? i need to spend some xp, but want to learn a talent, this turn....have we finalized how this will work?
I think we decided that you can’t learn talents with XP’s.
Okay so I spend 10 days or 20 or any multiple of 10 to learn a talent. What do I roll?
Do you have a trainer?
No. It’s a talent that is a new arcane talent.
I am not so sure this will help but...
On the Shared Table Top Rules spread sheet in Rethem 616 I added a place to make some training notes on talents. Enter things like
Hard to train
it would also be good to post notes in the top half about the new movement rules
Must have trainer
something else
maybe target numbers or something
I do think we need a mechanism for acquiring the talents that we've created since the game started. Maybe we could make a list of all of those talents and randomize (x) per clan. They could be tradeable between clans. I know Danny doesn't like to give things for free, so maybe if we want them, we have to substitute them in for talents that we already have.
So if your agility is 6, your target is 8 to raise it. if your short sword is 6 your target to raise is 7.
A suggestion on how to handle rolling a 10. roll a 10, check for open end..if you open end and double your target, you raise by 2 points instead of 1.
so trying to raise your 6 agility, you roll a 10 open end then roll a 6, giving you a total of 16, effectively doubling and raising agility to 8.
I think the rule is currently that if you roll a 10, you get an immediate second roll for free. No open-end needed. But you do have to roll against your higher stat or skill.
oh cool...didnt know that..i like that better
though my idea affords the chance at the ultra rare 11
Have we covered learning new spells in your school or neutral? what about new school that is directly next to yours?
I think we talked about a new spell (in your school or neutral) requiring rolling a minimum of 4 for a Level I (it might have been a 3. I don't remember). If we apply the rules for going up in Level II or Level III to opening a new spell, then you'd need to roll a 5 to open a Level II, and a 6 to open Level III. I don't think we have any set rules for adjacent schools.
Alrighty then..thanks
We had discussed it some here:
https://newarakus.proboards.com/thread/3252/experience-rolls
I've moved all those rules to a training tab on the game rules. I am not the greatest at formatting, so someone should pretty it up...and ofcourse they arent "official" till smokey signs off on it. But at least you can find them.
But based on what i saw there..you have to spend 10 days to open up a new school? that doesnt get you any spells, just makes it where you can learn them??
If that's what it says.. maybe that's not long enough. I could see studying for a whole turn to open a new school. In the Shek Pvar doc, it looks like a big deal to attune to a convocation, much less a second one.
10 days plus a trainer from that school for a chance (not sure the odds) to open up a new school, I think? Odds are low if it’s not a directly adjacent school
For Detori (Pelahn) to Open JMorvi (1 away) its a 4 or higher..(is that INT?)
Then i can learn spells.
I posted all of this on the training tab...someone needs to spot check me please....and prettify it
Oh wait you have to just roll a 4 on a d10.....
You would also need to find a pay a trainer who is willing to train you, which could take weeks or months
But maybe you need to open it and get to a certain number or spellcaster points in that school before you can start learning spells on your own. Rather than being able to learn all spells right when you open it.
I'd say each new spell has to be trained by a trainer, but once you learn it..you can practice yourself....maybe we can use D&D ideas..if you scribe the spell to "magical" documents you can learn it initially from it and it goes poof, even if you dont make your roll.
I feel like we have 2 threads going here. Maybe someone should start a thread on learning spells. I felt like you guys were getting some pretty good work done on talents. I think we should do a formal review this Sunday and try to wrap something up. It would be nice if you guys had a summary on the rules (which I think Jeff has started and asked for some help) or it might be cool to make it an article?
Who got us off topic?
i consolidated training rules on the game rules sheet..
Question, about training but different than talents/arcane. Our exp we gain, when we get to roll after 25 xps....can be on anything that doesnt require 10 days or a trainer or something new?
I'd suggest smokey create a training article..Leave it blank, except things we already know..so we can start discussing in depth...and when we decide on something, it can just be moved to the article.
I know i posted some stuff on the game rules, but its harder to converse there.